Re: [balloon-makers] Flying in or around populated areas...

["kevin herschman" <private e-mail address>]

Thanks Jon and List for your continued audience.

I might be on of those pilots who "doesn't know what an STC is"...

I actually didn't mean STC (Supplemental Type Certificate) in my question, although the information that Jon provided was stimulating.  
What I meant was Standard Airworthiness Certificate...I think.

I am basically wondering what the confines of a re-build are.  Mark Caviezel spoke to this in a private e-mail earlier in the day saying that he thought it had pretty much been established that if you re-build a balloon you have to use the same fabric, however I wanted to run it  by the list to see what else might be dredged up.

I also wonder, now that Jon has brought it up, if anyone has gone through the hoops to STC lightweight fabric.

Thanks,
Kevin

On 1/12/07, Jon Radowski <private e-mail address> wrote:

Hi Kevin,

At the risk of showing my inexperience, I will offer the below
suggestions. Take it for what it's worth. (i.e. don't take my word for
anything below this line - this is all from clouded memory!):
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Operating Limitations associated with your Special Airworthiness
Certificate will spell out exactly what you can and cannot do with
your Experimental aircraft. Of course, that's all open to
interpretation of "the Administrator" or designees. Basically, don't
do anything imprudent (aka "stupid") and you'll be OK. If I remember
correctly, the congested airspace restriction usually allows wording
to the effect of "except when authorized." If you are in contact with
the controlling agency and they have no problem with your continued
presence in their airspace, you'll be just fine.

---

As for the lightweight fabric STC, that is something I have been
casually researching over the past year. As soon as I get some time in
the repair station to sit down and take a few weeks to start the ball
rolling, I will be doing just that - as well as 1.9 oz fabric. Someone
else may even be working on it, or even be close to completion - you'd
have no idea until after their STC is granted. The STC "underworld" is
not very public at all. It's nearly impossible to know who is working
on what unless you are in contact with them :)  ...Not that many
pilots even know what an STC is. It's kind of funny.

The FAA's website has all the documentation, requirements, checklists
and flowcharts to begin planning your STC project. Although I have
never undertaken an STC, I am planning a handful for the somewhat near
future (to be finalized within a couple years). It's easier than you
may expect - just don't expect an immediate response. Plan on at very
least a year from submission of the initial STC paperwork to final
approval, for a simple STC. Contracting an independent DER to review
and help submit engineering and testing data will certainly help the
process go as fast as possible - but nothing will speed up the FAA's
end of the process. I shudder to think how much longer it would
actually take the FAA to oversee testing and review the data
themselves, if tasked with that responsibility.

There are two types of STC's - one-off's and make/model based (I'm
sure that's not what they are called, but that's the idea). A one-off
is for a specific aircraft (only one serial number - i.e. Aerostar
S60A-3056). This is useful for unique modifications that have no
widespread appeal or "market."

For a fabric replacement STC such as the one you describe, you'd
likely want to apply that to an entire model line of envelopes (all
S60A's). Even better, you would want to apply that to as many makes
and models as logically possible. All Aerostars, Ravens, Balloon
Works, FireFly's, Galaxies, Camerons, Lindstrands, Colts, Thunder &
Colts, Fantasies, etc... Get ready to list all the models you can
possibly research and dig up.

This will mean your test data may be replicated many times in numerous
STC's -typically one STC per manufacturer (of which each STC lists all
models affected of that manufacturer). This is good, for you want to
get as much covered in one shot as possible. You don't want to have to
start the process over and resubmit because you forgot a make/model in
there somewhere :)

So - yes, it is entirely possible and legal to replace the panels in a
balloon with lightweight fabric and still retain all commercial
privileges. It just takes time, research and a lot of comprehensive
test data which the FAA must accept. If you want to sit back and wait
for it to happen, it will be possible someday. Or --- feel free to get
going on it on your own. Once you hold the STC, you can make money by
licensing it out to others who would like to do the same thing to
their balloons.

Even better (for the one who does all the work), the FAA does not like
to duplicate the STC process if there is something similar out there
to what you would like to accomplish. It is much less work for them to
tell you to "go license that guy's STC - don't bother us" if something
similar already exists for your application. As far as I know, there
is nothing of the sort out there for lightweight fabric - just Tarp
Head's 1.9 oz. ripstop nylon STC for Aerostar/Raven envelopes. I hope
to someday see (or more likely, spearhead) a widespread, wide-ranging
STC which allows 1.9 oz and 1.3 oz ripstop nylon to be introduced into
all possible makes and models of envelopes (excluding polyester, if
necessary).


I don't consider myself at all an expert on the STC process, but I do
frequently bounce ideas off someone who has pulled off a lot of killer
stuff with STC's (and who has also put the FAA in their place
repeatedly in other areas). When it comes down to what the common
person can accomplish within the FAA's system, almost anything is
possible if you can prove the chances are that it's most likely not
going to kill someone. Not many people are willing to jump and crawl
through the series of hoops and tunnels to do that - but those who do
are rewarded not only with the satisfaction of accomplishment, but
somewhat often lucrative results if the market bears a need for their
innovation.

The opportunity is there... Take advantage.


Good luck,
Jon

--
Soft Landings,
Jon Radowski
--
http://www.hotair.tv
http://www.airscapedesign.com
Elverson, PA - 908-208-1869



On 1/12/07, kevin herschman <private e-mail address> wrote:
> Alright internet friends.
>
> We've had little discussion lately, so I'm gonna spark at least a little
> with an enquiry about people's experiences and/or recomendations with flying
> Experimental in or around populated areas.
>
> Any way to do it?  Strictly off limits?  Okay within the waiver of a
> sanctioned event?  Something you can get away with some places but not
> others?
>
> Any way to do a re-build on an older STC balloon with lightweight fabric and
> have it be commercially viable?  I can't find any FAA rules for this...can
> anyone point me?
>
> I had a great season flying the balloon that I built last winter and am
> starting to play with thoughts of a bigger balloon.  Trying not to be
> greedy, but different balloons for different purposes.
>
> Thanks,
> Kevin
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